LEG SHOW OCTOBER 1997 Interview with Jane
by Neil Wexler

Two years ago, when I first interviewed Jane for LEG SHOW, X-traordinary Talk was just getting off the ground; it was more a passionate hobby than a full-time job, and Jane, a divorcee, had a medical marketing business with which she worked hard to support her two children. But the fantastic response to her first interview and layout has helped X-traordinary Talk grow. Today, in addition to her line of audiotapes such as She Who Must Be Obeyed, Giving In, and Helplessly Hoping, she has a 900 line offering five-to-ten-minute fantasies; a website with a complete catalog and color photos; and she even has a skilled phone mistress who can do live verbal sessions. If you enjoy domination that’s more in the wifely 'raised eyebrow' tradition, rather than in the 'I’m your mistress you piece of shit' approach, then write this den mother for naughty panty-cravers.

For this chat, I met Jane at a prestigious New York hotel where she was staying with her new husband. She was dressed in conservative dark slacks and a sweater-jacket. Although we had a Continental breakfast under a convivial mural in the stately, carpeted lounge of the hostelry, we decided to go upstairs to her suite for the actual interview, which involved intimate questions that might have been a little awkward to ask in the presence of ever-hovering waiters.

When we got up to the suite, Jane’s husband Stephen, a compact, dark-haired fellow, was sitting at a 18th century-style desk working on his lap-top computer. He is an international businessman of some repute. A few minutes after I started my questions, Stephen asked if we minded if he had his breakfast while we did the interview. Jane and I both said it was okay. He ate quietly off to the side, never once joining in our talk; then, when he was finished, returned to his lap-top. Keep in mind that throughout the ninety minutes of my interview tape, there is the tap-tap-tap of his fingers on the keyboard in the background, as Jane explains in a soft, almost girlish voice that belies her age (early forties), her particular style of teasing and pleasing the submissive male.

Leg Show: What was the reaction to your first interview and layout?

JANE: Phenomenal. I was deluged with letters, calls, orders, and I didn’t exactly know how to handle that. But one of the letters was from a very nice man in San Francisco, and it turned out he knew one of the women from Boston I’d worked with. [Coincidentally], he had ordered something from me that had her voice on it. He called her and said, “Tell me about Jane.” Now, I never did all this thinking, “This’ll be a really cool way to meet men,” but I met Stephen this way. He told me later that he was halfway through the interview when he sat down to write me. He just KNEW that we had a connection based on my responses to your questions. I called this woman [we both knew] and she said he was a wonderful person. The moment I laid eyes on him, I knew I’d spend my life with him.

LEG SHOW: Obviously, you were able to meet on a common ground of sexuality.

JANE: Oh yeah. That was out of the way. I knew his, he knew mine. It was just, “Let’s get to know each other in other ways.” We knew that if other things meshed, sex would be free and natural. He flew to Albuquerque, where I was living at the time, and we had dinner. One thing I’d like printed is this: Dian is my angel. Without her, I don’t know if my business would have grown or not. And I surely would not have met Stephen.

LEG SHOW: You’ve said that the tape called “Your Training Begins” was an enactment of your first scene together.

JANE: Yes. A lot of the sex I do comes from the cassette fantasies that I’ve written. I’ll write it, it makes me excited.. .that one I had written before I met Stephen, but I was anxious to do it. I actually took him home that first night we had dinner. I’d only ever done that one other time in my life; I used some excuse of “my dog needs to be fed.” The female correlation to “Come see my etchings!” (Laughs) Stephen is a reserved personality, and I’m not really aggressive, but we were sitting on the sofa and I just said, It would be okay if you came a little closer. And we ended up spending about eighteen hours in bed. It was just natural. I didn’t exactly plan that this or that is going to happen [from the tape], but throughout the eighteen hours, what I had fantasized about, I got to do! (Delighted laugh) Along with other things. The big thing, of course, was that we fell in love. But there’s nothing wrong with some good sex along the way, is there?

LEG SHOW: Obviously, not having been there, I don’t know precisely what you two did that night, but for readers who have yet to hear this cassette, let me interject that on it you have a man following you with his nose buried in your ass... licking you from the toes to the thighs. ..getting spanked by you, being tied down to the bed, and finally humbly asking permission to cum. Well, what have you fantasized lately that you’re going to try and what tape is it on?

JANE: (Laughs) I haven’t actually done this yet but it will be done on this trip to New York (chuckles)...Such a simple idea and it will be part of a larger sexual experience: it would be interesting to put Stephen in a pair of panties and ask him to take a shower while I watch, and rub himself all over with the slick glycerin soap, and watch him bring himself off through the panties...

LEG SHOW: What is it about panties that intrigues you so much?

JANE: The juxtaposition of the soft feminine wisp of garment on a strong male. And I don’t mean necessarily strong in the sense of a muscular male, I mean a strong personality, a strong intelligence. I remember when men’s bikinis came into fashion in the 70s. I always tried to get my boyfriends to wear them; they were loath to do it usually, but I always tried. I didn’t know that I wanted them in female panties [yet]...when I was a journalist, I did a story on The Rocky Horror Picture Show, which was just beginning to be a cult film. Tim Curry in the garter belt and panties turned me on unbelievably, and still does.. .but I still didn’t [understand] that I wanted men in MY panties. So I was always searching for briefer and briefer men’s underwear for my boyfriends. And it wasn’t until much later that [I realized] what really excited me was that those [men’s bikinis] were like female garments. “Hey, wait a minute, THAT’s what I want on him. Panties!” I like to play with [a man] like a doll, dress him up in stockings, heels; as far as I can push it.

LEG SHOW: You do this to Stephen?

JANE: Well, Stephen is Stephen, and my customers are my customers, but in my mind and fantasies, everybody is kind of together. My relationship with Stephen is enhanced by the warmth I feel toward my customers, and my relationship with my customers is enhanced by my love for Stephen...so basically, I like to transport a MAN from a place of strength into a place of docility, into a place of peace, that he doesn’t ever get to experience, that he doesn’t know in his life from eight to five.

LEG SHOW: Docility, in other words, as symbolized and stimulated by panties or various degrees of feminization. Well, how has your own dominant sexuality evolved since we last talked?

JANE: I’m much more comfortable, and I’m aware that men who come to me as a customer or in a social setting, where ever I happen to be they usually need something from me. Sometimes they don’t even know what that is. But they have a secret—do you know what I mean? I just know that.

LEG SHOW: Has working in your business given you a sense that everybody has a secret?

JANE: Yes. No question about it. I think that we have more secrets around our sexuality than in any other area. It’s such a shame. But I come from a place of understanding that everybody’s got pain, everybody’s got a cross to bear. Some family of origin issue, something going on with them that is terribly complex and very private.. .we talked about this in the first interview. And a lot of times the issue is around our sexuality. . .we don’t choose our sexuality, it chooses us, and I come from the vantage point of, Why not enjoy that? Why not exploit that to our benefit? Why do we see ourselves as perverts, instead of this very special chosen people? I don’t see myself as a pervert, but rather as normal and healthy and lusty and sane as any other person walking on this earth. I run two businesses, I raise two children, I go to PTA meetings, I go to the grocery store, I keep a household together; I wear regular clothing, and I live an entirely normal life. We’re here in New York going to the theater, seeing friends; we’re not here to get Stephen’s balls pierced or to hang out at THE VAULT.

I’m a woman just like women in [my customers’] lives, an acceptable marriage partner and not just someone you’d hire. I have this special bent in my sexuality, but I feel totally, entirely comfortable with it. It’s not just that I’ve learned to 'cope' with this, but I celebrate it. And I can accept anybody in any sexuality that they have.. .sometimes men come to me, and they feel there might be something wrong with them. They don’t really want to interact with me [via email or letters], they just want to buy my products and satisfy themselves. Often they lead a double life: they feel [their interests] would not be acceptable to their wives. They don’t know that they’re okay.

That issue of okayness permeates our culture; on the way in last night from the airport, we stopped at a red light and I noticed a newsstand out the window, and blaring off a [well-known women’s] magazine’s cover was, 'Am I Normal?' If it’s on [such a mainstream magazine], that means every one of us is wondering if we’re normal, and that’s even without a special sexuality. In our culture, somebody who wants to suck toes, [polish] a woman’s toenails, wear panties, humiliate himself for her as a means to sexual expression that’s painted in such a negative light. How is that person going to feel normal? That’s really a tough one. But I come along and say, “Wait a minute. This is really fun, it’s expressive, it’s creative.” When we’re in a group of high-powered people and we are in that milieu because Stephen is an international businessman I wonder how many of those people are my customers or potential customers.

LEG SHOW: Have you run into anybody on your mailing list yet?

JANE: No. (Laughs) And if I did, nobody would know. Who we are as we project ourselves is different; we wear different masks.

LEG SHOW: So they order your products under different names?

JANE: Sometimes. I have a lot of Smiths and Jones in my database, and I don’t care; whatever makes a man feel comfortable.

LEG SHOW: One of your personal turn-ons is the strong, successful, outwardly dominant man who is then made submissive to a woman; but how do you react to the guy who is not strong and commanding in his outside life either, but is passive or docile or even, to use strong perjoratives, 'wimpy' or 'worm-like' AWAY from the bedroom too?

JANE: You might see him that way, and society might, but I don’t necessarily see a man who others see as passive [as being really that way]. No matter how submissive a man is, I don’t consider him a wimp. But if a man wants to be called a worm, he should seek out someone else. Some people are more passive than others, by nature. I myself prefer those hard-driving types; I love the extreme dichotomy very dominant/very submissive.

The fact that a man has had the courage to even contact me—which in itself is an admission of a desire to experience the gentler side of his sexuality—makes that man strong in my eyes. How difficult it must be for a man who is an international businessman or a company CEO or a high-level scientist to call and tell me he needs to wear my panties. I treasure him for telling me. Because I want to put him in my panties, if only in fantasy, and help take him to that softer place of surrender, of being taken care of.

LEG SHOW: What are some of your top-selling tapes right now?

JANE: In almost all the work I do, I deal with a loving couple, who are already in a relationship and they’re expressing their sexuality. But it’s hard to say what our best sellers are, because everything sells very well...the new Panty Boy is selling very well. I think it’s a popular fantasy: you have your desires, and you’ve decided to act them out with a professional. Even though that’s not really who you want to be with, you could never tell your wife, and so you’re with a professional and she’s doing everything to your liking, and then your wife walks in and takes over. I think that’s sort of a constant fantasy. It comes with a pair of panties.

LEG SHOW: Do you design the panties yourself, or go on buying trips?

JANE: Well, a customer can buy panties that I’ve worn, but the panties that come with Panty Boy are not worn; I bought every red bikini panty that I could find, hundreds of pairs. But I also have fantasies involving certain panties that I want a man to wear, and I design those and have them made: the organza panties that open at the crotch and tie at the sides so they can be fuller or smaller they give a lot of options for play; and then there’s the Whispers Rosebud panties, that are very sheer nylon. The idea that you’re covered but not covered is very exciting to me. Other women look at panties and say, “Hmm, these go with my bras,” but I look at them and think, “Hmm, are these good for masturbating?” (Laughs) “Would these fit over a man’s cock and balls?” (Chuckles)

LEG SHOW: Do you and Stephen ever go shopping for panties together?

JANE: Yes. We travel quite a bit overseas, and to find European lingerie well, let’s say the French have got a sensibility about lingerie that is so refined. Ohmigosh, I’ve got some really beautiful lingerie that of course I share with Stephen. Which, by the way, he just uses in play; he doesn’t wear panties on a daily basis. He is totally into his strength position during the day; he is not thinking of his sexuality. And he doesn’t care to put them on himself, but wants it to be part of bedroom play.

LEG SHOW: So you put them on him?

JANE: Right.

LEG SHOW: When you go shopping, do you ever have him actually purchase the panties?

JANE: Oh yes. Sometimes I’ll say, “Go buy us identical matching panties.” And he’ll have to go into a store.

LEG SHOW: Do you ever think of totally crossdressing him?

JANE: I’ve gone eighty percent of the way; but I’ve never done him a hundred percent. And it’s fun, so silly, and it’s got that erotic humiliation and oddness that is sexy to me. I like the idea of crossdressing [in private] but not necessarily the idea of going out in public.

People confuse 'erotic humiliation' with 'shaming' somebody. It doesn’t seem different to them, but it is different in the context of sexual play. For instance, I would never bring something into our sexuality that [a man] might feel bad about; it’s always a teasing kind of thing, like (in a sing-song voice) “Show me what’s inside your panties!” Rather than [making a remark] about somebody’s short stature, something they might be really sensitive about.

LEG SHOW: So really, the word 'humiliation' is not accurate for the kind of play you’re talking about. Perhaps the right word for it hasn’t been invented yet. Of course, when women dress up like men, they’re not thought of as being humiliated. Although now that women seem to be in a certain position of power and dominance in our culture (at least symbolically), I can foresee where it could become a sexual humiliation scenario for a female to be taken out of her own clothing and put into a man’s. Now, let me ask you this: do you ever fantasize about being a man?

JANE: Well, I really really really fundamentally don’t want to be a man, but.. .the idea of taking on some maleness is intriguing. I’ve never done this with Stephen, but the fantasy of penetrating him as a man penetrates a woman really turns me on. Actually having a cock, the equipment to penetrate a man, that does excite me a lot.

LEG SHOW: Then maybe you should go on a shopping trip for a strap-on.

JANE: (Laughs) Yeah, that interests me a lot.

LEG SHOW: Do your customers frequently fantasize themselves as voyeurs while a dominant woman gets it on with another man in their presence?

JANE: Somewhat, but it’s not a huge area of interest. But watching a dominant woman with a submissive woman is also interesting, like in these photos. That doesn’t interest me [personally], though; I like to access a man’s sensual feminine side more than I want to be with a woman. I don’t have any interest in being with a woman. The interesting thing about this photo shoot was that we used a woman to represent the feminine side of a man; we didn’t use her because I dominate women. Men want to see women in panties, not other men, because it’s more luscious. The panties this woman wears are from my own company. And I think it worked really well.

But to be honest, I’ve never been that close to a woman, like when I had my fingers down at her pussy. [Although] I could smell her and experience the male side of things, it didn’t do anything for me sexually. It was certainly interesting, but it wasn’t a turn-on. But there was one moment that was a turn-on. . .that was when I put on the corset. Eric himself did the laces in the back, and he was so adept and strong with them. It felt so good to be pinched into that tight corset that for a split [second] he was both master and servant, and I was both mistress and slave. Although putting the garment on me was just work for him, it was sublime, just for the sixty seconds it took for him to do the laces. And then it was back to work. . .certainly, fun work!

LEG SHOW: So in a way, Eric was enacting that same dynamic that you do in the photos when you’re crouching to take down the girl’s panties; you’re not relinquishing your mastery just because you’re lowering yourself from a physical viewpoint to assist your slave. By the way, were you wearing panties at the moment you got excited from Eric’s tight lacing?

JANE: I was wearing panties, a long skirt, and the corset.

LEG SHOW: And what did you do with those panties afterwards?

JANE: (Chuckles) What did I do...? I think I shoved them into that model’s face!

LEG SHOW: Speaking of attire, from the way you’re dressed now, the average person wouldn’t guess at your mastery in dominating men.

JANE: There’s nothing special about it, but it’s definitely 'strong woman' dressing, not passive woman dressing. For example, I find a woman’s business suit incredibly erotic; it especially depends on how she wears it. I tend to wear a tight suit jacket, a slim skirt, and high heels with black stockings. And I notice men will respond. ..I think it touches a place in a man if he has that certain 'computer chip.' A place he may not even be aware of. I interact with strong people in my medical marketing business, for example a physician who’s built a huge medical practice, and he’s intimidated by me; I can feel it. Of course I find it delicious in the private realms of my mind. . .but I don’t think he’s even aware. He’s a very strong personality, married to the same woman since he was eighteen, but he doesn’t even know what I’m touching; yet he’s scared and turned-on at the same time.

LEG SHOW: I understand besides having a complete catalog and some color photos on your website, you have an interesting feature called Jane’s Journal. Tell us about that.

JANE: So far it’s been an exchange between a panty boy and me. He’s a real person.. .a single father of two children in the East somewhere. Articulate, intelligent, and he’s just recovered totally from a Christopher Reeve-type accident. I have no idea what he looks like. It’s an entirely email relationship, but I care very much about him as a person, not just as a person with sexual needs. I just plain like him. He can’t type me a sentence where I’m not turned on; there’s just something about him. . . have a lot more compassion for him than for someone who only emails me something like, “Oh I worship the ground you walk on, and may I have permission to fantasize about French-kissing your ass” because I don’t know who that person is, there’s no context for their sexuality and those are general terms that could just be spoken to anybody. It gives me a lot of pleasure to correspond with people, but it needs to be real.

LEG SHOW: Even though you don’t do live sessions or phone consultations, you are accessible through email?

JANE: I see every piece of mail that comes in, every piece of email, and I’m the only person who listens to my answering machine messages. Nobody sees intimate correspondence but me, nobody, and that will always be the case, I hope.

LEG SHOW: Is it draining to correspond with a lot of people?

JANE: Energizing, not draining. It takes up quite a bit of time, and it’s probably something I shouldn’t do, because it’s not growing the business specifically, but the written word is so pleasurable to me. In that way, I’m very much accessible, I give of myself totally, I like it and get a lot from it. It gives me a chance to be a voyeur into somebody else’s sex life, and it also gives me a chance to get ideas for future cassettes and 900 fantasies, so I certainly appreciate that. It also gives me a lot of juice in my own sex life. And it gives me a chance to get to know people. I don’t have a lot of really close friends, because I don’t feel free to discuss this business with just anybody in the very nice but conservative community where I now live near San Francisco. It’s a nice place to raise my children, but I don’t put myself out in the world as a person who has a sex business. That’s very private. I need the same kind of privacy that my customers need.

I correspond with people all over the world, and there’s one customer I want to discuss really briefly. I think he’s representative of so many people. He’s a physicist who lives in the U.S. He and I have spoken on the telephone just a few times, just casual discussion, not paid or anything... he’s got my website bookmarked under a code name so his co-workers won’t know that he accesses it. And he tells me that just logging onto my website gives him an immediate erection. I know that this man would trade that new pool table he got at Christmas for one chance with his wife taking a little control in sex: coming home all sweaty from the gym, dragging him into the laundry room, sitting up on the dryer, pulling down her sweats, and saying, “I feel sweaty, I need cleaning up. I want you to do that.” Not giving him any satisfaction, but maintaining the tease throughout the day. He would be the happiest man on earth.

LEG SHOW: Do you encourage him to do that?

JANE: Of course. People don’t get it, though. And that brings us to a whole other area: couples, and how do they learn how to do it? How does a man broach the subject with his wife? Where do people start? I’ve sold a lot of copies of a tape called How to Sexually Dominate Your Man, it was out the last time we talked. But now I think that title is way too scary; that’s not what women want to hear. And so I’m [redoing] it, and it’ll be available through the Xandria Collection, they advertise in magazines from Cosmo to The New Yorker to George.

They’ve got products for sensual couples and that’s where I’m taking X-traordinary Talk—more into the couples realm. Because men don’t want to play alone. Solo sex is great, it’s better than no sex, it’s nice to have some outlet; but if we can present it to women in a way that’s acceptable to them, then they might have some fun, too. I think a lot of women [want to play this way], but they don’t know what to do. And a lot of men, once they become comfortable in their own sexuality, will be able to broach the subject a little bit more. So I’m going to re-do [this tape] and want to call the new version Playing with Fire in the Bedroom A Guide for Men, and a Guide for Women, and talk about the [principles of] tease. I used the f-word too much in [the first version]...I’Il retitle it, and use softer language.

Throughout this interview I’ve talked about D&S, dominance and submission, but all my brand of dominance is a tease, it’s extending a promise without fulfillment; just dragging on the foreplay; making him feel good but not giving him what he wants. Which is, of course, giving him what he wants: to feel excited, to feel appreciated, to feel loved and accepted. Giving him brain sex. People want that. A man doesn’t just want a woman to spread her legs so he can fuck her. That is not what men want. Why do we think that’s what men want? Because that’s what we’ve seen in X-rated videos forever: fuck and suck. That is not what men want; not the men that I come in contact with. They want much more intellectual sex than that. A tease, a buildup, play, something creative; not something that’s over in five minutes, [which was what I had in my marriage] as we discussed in our first interview. I will never have that kind of sex again.

Women can relate to tease. We’ve had pin-ups for decades and we find that acceptable, like “Uh-oh, the top of my stocking is showing!” (Laughs) It’s fun, and then you’ve got that man in the palm of your hand.

LEG SHOW: So you and Stephen got married this May?

JANE: May 25th, two years to the day from the time we met. Stephen gives me more than love; it’s bigger. He gives me acceptance and affirmation that I’ve never had before. I’ve always felt before like I had to perform, like I had to try harder; with Stephen I can just be, and that’s good enough. Plus he’s unbelievably romantic; I’ve never had a partner so romantic; with flowers, and the 25th of every month he somehow commemorates that this is the day of the month that we met. This diamond and gold necklace I’m wearing? I saw it in the store, and then there it was, draped over my makeup table one day. But it’s not about expense, because Stephen can afford this necklace, it’s not a big deal; it’s about something from the heart. It could have been a red rose. Or today it was a card.. .anyway, I want to make it real clear that when I’m talking about Playing with Fire in the Bedroom and I like that term, Stephen came up with that just last night, I’d been wracking my brain, looking in books of poetry; what I like about it is that it says it’s a little bit forbidden, a little bit exciting, a little bit dangerous, but it’s really fun. Like when you’re a kid and you’re doing something you’re not quite supposed to be doing. It’s not really hurting anybody; you know your mom might get mad, but [you] just try it. And it’s so exhilarating.

I think you can have the push and pull of the tease, and have it be erotic, but still have self-acceptance about it. Stephen personifies that perfectly, whereas my old partner Joe whom I spoke about in the previous interview, [the man that I first explored D&S with], felt very guilt-ridden. They are very much the same sexually, but Stephen says, “This is really fun and cool.” It doesn’t mean his sex is less good because he doesn’t repress it or feel bad about it. I think he derives just as much pleasure from feeling good about himself.

LEG SHOW: That’s a lucky place to be.

JANE: I guess so. Anyway, when I talk about games in the bedroom, that’s not replacing romance and candles; it’s just adding to it. Spice.

Author’s bio:
In his interviews, veteran contributor Neil Wexler constructs, through their own words, verbal portraits of sexual practitioners of various stripes, most recently, San Francisco domina Mistress Midori. And in his many short stories under the nom de porn Irv 0. Neil, he examines his own feelings about kink’s potential for both physical arousal and emotional conflict, as in “Very Important Pervert,” LEG SHOW July 1997.

Copyright 1997 by Neil Wexler
Photos by Eric Kroll

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